IRC Meetups/2005/June/June29RawLog

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Jun 29 15:56:31 Podz meetupbr / Jun 29 15:56:42 Firas hehbr / Jun 29 15:56:42 photomatt this is actually an interesting meeting because I'm trying to get something new started here in SFbr / Jun 29 15:56:48 photomatt WordPress Wednesdaybr / Jun 29 15:57:09 photomatt right now two JS hackers from jotspot and the Dojo project are over at my place hacking awaybr / Jun 29 15:57:31 tunicwriter Add sex appeal to it: Wordpress Hump Wednesday...br / Jun 29 15:57:34 Firas What's WordPress Wednesday?br / Jun 29 15:57:35 photomatt we're going to dojo-enable the editing textareas to be resizable and some other goodiesbr / Jun 29 15:57:49 geoffrey dojo?br / Jun 29 15:57:59 Podz for 1.6 ?br / Jun 29 15:58:09 MCincubus http://dojotoolkit.org/  ??br / Jun 29 15:58:10 photomatt http://dojotoolkit.org/br / Jun 29 15:58:14 * ColdForged (~cf@cpe-069-133-153-197.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #wordpress-meetupbr / Jun 29 15:58:18 photomatt Podz: yes for 1.6br / Jun 29 15:58:21 mdawaffe (can we call you sensei?)br / Jun 29 15:58:50 ryanduff hehbr / Jun 29 15:58:54 photomatt let's start with the first agenda itembr / Jun 29 15:58:55 Podz ColdForged:: http://dojotoolkit.org/ - mentioned just before you arrivedbr / Jun 29 15:59:02 * h0bbel (h0bbel@h0bbel.gallery) has joined #wordpress-meetupbr / Jun 29 15:59:04 ColdForged (thx)br / Jun 29 15:59:08 photomatt the /extend/plugins directorybr / Jun 29 15:59:16 photomatt no progress has been made since last weekbr / Jun 29 15:59:28 photomatt so nothing new to report therebr / Jun 29 15:59:39 mdawaffe photomatt: this is you, or is it someone else?br / Jun 29 15:59:55 mdawaffe re: extend/pluginsbr / Jun 29 16:00:04 photomatt just me right now. Firas is working on something similar and I'd be happy to have some help with what we're doingbr / Jun 29 16:00:13 photomatt he's working on something for drdave (?)br / Jun 29 16:00:45 Firas yeah, i'd be happy to help out with the official directory but i also don't want to limit to the svn repo in terms of listinsgbr / Jun 29 16:01:00 Podz when you say help, I assume it's coding ?br / Jun 29 16:01:21 photomatt yesbr / Jun 29 16:01:50 Podz that rules me out then :)br / Jun 29 16:02:40 MCincubus I think Podz knows how to code, but doesn't realize it yet. Learning my osmosis, or something.br / Jun 29 16:02:53 photomatt hehbr / Jun 29 16:02:57 Podz ph-what ?br / Jun 29 16:03:03 photomatt okay moving forwardbr / Jun 29 16:03:09 * SchroedingersRat (schroeding@Schroedinger.user) has joined #wordpress-meetupbr / Jun 29 16:03:14 mdawaffe Podz: ph-otomattbr / Jun 29 16:03:22 Podz ahhhhhhbr / Jun 29 16:03:45 mdawaffe a quick-link syntax would be divine: Template Tag or codex Template Tag /br / Jun 29 16:03:50 photomatt I agreebr / Jun 29 16:03:53 photomatt that would be groovybr / Jun 29 16:03:57 mdawaffe pre_post filterbr / Jun 29 16:03:59 mdawaffe a pluginbr / Jun 29 16:04:02 photomatt okay, let's do itbr / Jun 29 16:04:05 mdawaffe kbr / Jun 29 16:04:08 photomatt is the bbpress plugin stuff checked in?br / Jun 29 16:04:09 skippy w00t!br / Jun 29 16:04:18 photomatt I remember it may try to autoload everything in a folderbr / Jun 29 16:04:25 photomatt like WP plugins without activationbr / Jun 29 16:04:30 mdawaffe photomatt: oh, I thought it wasbr / Jun 29 16:04:37 photomatt oh well, mdawaffe and I can look at thatbr / Jun 29 16:04:37 mdawaffe ah - yes - it does do thatbr / Jun 29 16:04:44 photomatt it's easy enoughbr / Jun 29 16:04:50 skippy is there a preference for quick-link syntax? [[]] == bbPress. / == faux HTML.br / Jun 29 16:05:03 geoffrey i say faux XHTMLbr / Jun 29 16:05:04 skippy s/bbPress/bbcode/br / Jun 29 16:05:05 photomatt I really like the [[]] syntaxbr / Jun 29 16:05:11 mdawaffe [[]]++br / Jun 29 16:05:15 Podz ack ....br / Jun 29 16:05:21 geoffrey well, the rest of BBPress uses XHTMLbr / Jun 29 16:05:21 photomatt it's probably one of my fav things about mediawikibr / Jun 29 16:05:22 Podz ---ignore :)br / Jun 29 16:05:24 PotterSys [[]]++;br / Jun 29 16:05:33 photomatt yes but this is JUST for linking to the codexbr / Jun 29 16:05:33 geoffrey so for continually...br / Jun 29 16:05:34 westi use the [[]] media wikik syntax with the same abilitiesbr / Jun 29 16:05:37 geoffrey truebr / Jun 29 16:05:40 MCincubus yeah, [[]] is easy for noobsbr / Jun 29 16:05:43 westi [[]]++br / Jun 29 16:05:45 mdawaffe photomatt: yes - only for codexbr / Jun 29 16:05:48 Morydd less confusing I think.br / Jun 29 16:05:56 robla [[]]++br / Jun 29 16:05:56 skippy all in favor of [[]] for codex quick-link :br / Jun 29 16:05:57 Firas well the most important part of it isbr / Jun 29 16:05:57 skippy mebr / Jun 29 16:06:00 relle MEbr / Jun 29 16:06:02 photomatt this isn't generic linking structure, [blah blah] wouldn't workbr / Jun 29 16:06:03 westi MEbr / Jun 29 16:06:04 Firas it's consistent with the codex linking waybr / Jun 29 16:06:08 relle Sorta.br / Jun 29 16:06:09 ColdForged ++br / Jun 29 16:06:12 Firas okbr / Jun 29 16:06:12 skippy all opposed:br / Jun 29 16:06:13 photomatt cool, let's put it on the todo thenbr / Jun 29 16:06:21 relle Codex is [ ] for external and [[]] for internal.br / Jun 29 16:06:22 mdawaffe kbr / Jun 29 16:06:22 geoffrey I'd prefer XHTML for continually, but everyone seems to be against me ;)br / Jun 29 16:06:24 relle So choose one.br / Jun 29 16:06:28 skippy motion carried.br / Jun 29 16:06:31 Firas * Status of new WP.org logo?br / Jun 29 16:06:41 geoffrey []br / Jun 29 16:07:03 photomatt new logo is waiting for the new design, which is currently on hold because more important stuff is taking precendencebr / Jun 29 16:07:13 geoffrey like 1.6?br / Jun 29 16:07:20 MCincubus Good. Important stuff is important.br / Jun 29 16:07:26 geoffrey lol.br / Jun 29 16:07:32 Jalenack is there a link with current status of the image?br / Jun 29 16:08:01 MCincubus http://photomatt.net/temp/ but nothing really to discussbr / Jun 29 16:08:07 mdawaffe photomatt: will the new whatnot be rolled out before or with the next version?br / Jun 29 16:09:18 SuperLag mdawaffe: the new whatnot? :)br / Jun 29 16:09:35 mdawaffe SuperLag: :) logo/designbr / Jun 29 16:09:58 mdawaffe but i suppose it doesn't really matterbr / Jun 29 16:10:04 mdawaffe nexT?br / Jun 29 16:10:07 photomatt yeah it's not really a release holdupbr / Jun 29 16:10:19 photomatt wordpress openness issuesbr / Jun 29 16:11:15 tunicwriter i.e.: more devs? more telling the community what's going on so we aren't caught off guard? more suggestions taken in from the community?br / Jun 29 16:11:21 MCincubus I think having a bigger group of people to act as advisers to you and Ryan would be good. People who know how what patches are worth having and can expedite them.br / Jun 29 16:12:03 Firas so more people with authority on the bug tracker.br / Jun 29 16:12:15 mdawaffe I like (I believe it was photomatt's) idea about partitioning stuff off to other people. The issue, then, is finding people willing to commit (in both senses)br / Jun 29 16:12:36 westi how about opening up svn access - limited to a particular branch of svn for people working on new stuff projects like the new upload stuff so people can see whats in progressbr / Jun 29 16:12:47 westi i believe svn allows you to lock down what people can commit tobr / Jun 29 16:13:18 tunicwriter I like the idea of having possibly separate partitions/depts. that work on such and such but still report to matt... No doubt a leader is needed, but he doesn't need to do all the work, etc.br / Jun 29 16:13:27 Firas westi: would that be fixing a real problem? it sounds like a technical solution to a social organization problembr / Jun 29 16:14:14 westi Firas: it should help make more public who is working on what and allow people to see whats going on and what they can help with.br / Jun 29 16:14:20 robla the wp openness thread is what prompted me to write this: http://codex.wordpress.org/Development_Planningbr / Jun 29 16:14:24 Firas I think this sorta stuff is great: http://boren.nu/archives/2005/06/27/wp-commit-digest-for-june-17-27/br / Jun 29 16:14:40 photomatt the #1 problem from my point of view is the people that are delegated to don't follow htroughbr / Jun 29 16:14:40 westi Firas: i agreebr / Jun 29 16:14:53 tunicwriter photomatt: perhaps take on a Community Liaison as well... Someone devoted to taking in ideas from the community, etc.br / Jun 29 16:14:54 skippy I _loved_ Ryan's commit summary.br / Jun 29 16:14:59 * Schroedinger has quit (Connection timed out)br / Jun 29 16:15:13 robla I think part of the problem is that there's not intermediate steps between hey, I have an idea, and why isn't someone coding this?br / Jun 29 16:15:22 MCincubus tunicwriter, yeah, that was my idea too... 6-12 such peoplebr / Jun 29 16:15:22 westi photomatt: that is _never_ inspiring... especially considering the ammount of your time that must wastebr / Jun 29 16:15:39 tunicwriter MCincubus: makes sense to me.br / Jun 29 16:15:48 skippy Is there a problem with having a few more people with commit access? SVN can always be rolled back, can't it? So if someone abuses their commit access, it will be logged and can be removed.br / Jun 29 16:16:02 photomatt except with rare exceptions, everyone flakes. the people who don't flake as much are the dev team and get more responsibilitybr / Jun 29 16:16:27 photomatt skippy: socially, adding commit is easy but taking it away is a BIG deal to peoplebr / Jun 29 16:16:35 photomatt as I said, I don't want it to be a status thingbr / Jun 29 16:16:53 skippy then lay down clear rules on what is and is not permitted re: check ins.br / Jun 29 16:17:05 skippy and make sure you and ryan follow those rules, too, to set the example.br / Jun 29 16:17:15 skippy (that comment comes with no implications)br / Jun 29 16:17:16 MCincubus Ye shall know them by their fruits.br / Jun 29 16:17:25 skippy (ie: I'm not saying you don't walk the walk)br / Jun 29 16:17:33 photomatt okay think about bureaucracy, where does it come from?br / Jun 29 16:17:45 photomatt pretend WP was a little companybr / Jun 29 16:17:55 MCincubus public or private?br / Jun 29 16:18:04 SuperLag from people screwing up :)br / Jun 29 16:18:07 photomatt bureaucracy would come from people who weren't up to par in their actionsbr / Jun 29 16:18:09 photomatt SuperLag: exactlbr / Jun 29 16:18:11 photomatt *exactlybr / Jun 29 16:18:34 photomatt if you have the right people on the bus so to speak, you don't need complicated processes that weigh everyone downbr / Jun 29 16:18:52 photomatt these people are extremely rare, which is why hiring in startups is so hardbr / Jun 29 16:19:06 skippy personally, I think that's a non-starter. By your own declaration all poeple flake. You will flake. You will make mistakes. How does keeping commit access to you and ryan prevent the mistakes you're worrying about?br / Jun 29 16:19:32 Firas may i suggest a different starting pointbr / Jun 29 16:19:33 * h0bbel doesn't believe commit access is the issue at hand thoughbr / Jun 29 16:19:35 mdawaffe I don't think it's the mistakes, but rather the eventual lack of commitmentbr / Jun 29 16:20:02 Firas ok, commit access changes are undesirable/controversial at the moment, what about more bug/patch managementbr / Jun 29 16:20:24 photomatt everyone makes mistakes, that's not an issuebr / Jun 29 16:21:03 mdawaffe Firas: something like a patch assessor to say here, photomatt, put these in. They're good.?br / Jun 29 16:21:07 photomatt it's just a matter of optimizing things so everyone can contribute, but there isn't a lot of administrative overhead in monitoring thingsbr / Jun 29 16:21:11 skippy the issue is complicated processes... I thought revision control was an attempt to alleviate some issues with the weighty process of managing contributions...br / Jun 29 16:21:18 westi maybe we need some mozilla like thing on bugs/patches where people are able to mark things as reviewed /tested to speed up there managementbr / Jun 29 16:21:39 photomatt the bug system has functioned very well in the past for thatbr / Jun 29 16:21:41 Firas mdwaffe: yeah, there are lots and lots of open bugs on wp, it would be nice to mark them wontfix, or assign a version, or seek patches, etcbr / Jun 29 16:21:57 MCincubus photomatt, to be honest, it worked better on Mantis...br / Jun 29 16:21:57 photomatt we need someone gardening the bugs like we have codex gardenersbr / Jun 29 16:22:05 * robla looks for a Louis Villa essay on the bug management subject which is aproposbr / Jun 29 16:22:18 photomatt I think to some extent Mantis was more comfortable in some waysbr / Jun 29 16:22:23 SuperLag Here is my 2 cents. Commit access can/should be made available to those who *prove* themselves, but there has to be adequate QA/QC in place to watch, because people do/will make mistakes.br / Jun 29 16:22:30 photomatt but I think the development of trac matches more what we're doing long-termbr / Jun 29 16:22:40 * masquerade (~bobby@pcp009136pcs.dover01.de.comcast.net) has joined #wordpress-meetupbr / Jun 29 16:22:43 SuperLag but I'm sorry, that topic had been closed. :)br / Jun 29 16:22:53 * SchroedingersRat has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))br / Jun 29 16:23:02 MCincubus photomatt, definitely. I'm not saying go back.br / Jun 29 16:23:05 photomatt SuperLag: we don't gain anything by having 20 committers as opposed to 2, it only adds complicationsbr / Jun 29 16:23:22 skippy It adds some complications, while removing others.br / Jun 29 16:23:25 * shep|lappy has quit (( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 3.81 :: www.XLhost.de ))br / Jun 29 16:23:26 photomatt two is the smallest possible number with acceptable redundancybr / Jun 29 16:23:37 photomatt ;)br / Jun 29 16:23:40 Morydd question: would it be useful to have someone who is not a coder doing purely administrative aspects with the bug tracking... to follow up on progress and such?br / Jun 29 16:23:40 Firas photomatt, who can change bug status right now? Ryan You right? I propose bringing on, eg, MCincubus if he agrees to make some executive-type decisions, or at least organize priorities with bugs (this is easy, this can go in)br / Jun 29 16:23:55 photomatt this may be some bugs with how trac is set upbr / Jun 29 16:24:01 * BDyret (~BergensDy@235.80-202-119.nextgentel.com) has joined #wordpress-meetupbr / Jun 29 16:24:07 SuperLag photomatt: I guess all I have to compare it to is Gentoo, since I'm one of the ones with commit access. But I only work on a very small piece of the pie. And here the pie is small by design, so what you're saying makes sense.br / Jun 29 16:24:10 photomatt I think everyone who is logged in should be able to do most things with bugsbr / Jun 29 16:24:23 Firas right, technically :)br / Jun 29 16:24:24 MCincubus Firas, I've had that accessbr / Jun 29 16:24:30 geoffrey gotta run... bye allbr / Jun 29 16:24:39 robla Aforementioned Luis Villa thing: http://tieguy.org/talks/LCA-2005-paper-html/ Why Everyone Needs A Bugmasterbr / Jun 29 16:24:53 * geoffrey has quit ()br / Jun 29 16:25:00 photomatt I agree, we need bugmastersbr / Jun 29 16:25:14 photomatt though that's a funny namebr / Jun 29 16:25:21 * RandyWalker (~randy@198.111.220.88) has joined #wordpress-meetupbr / Jun 29 16:25:25 photomatt it doesn't need to be a coderbr / Jun 29 16:25:27 skippy mechanicsbr / Jun 29 16:25:29 SuperLag pest control! :)br / Jun 29 16:25:32 MCincubus Code Entymologistsbr / Jun 29 16:25:37 photomatt ha!br / Jun 29 16:25:38 relle mosquito swatters.br / Jun 29 16:25:42 ColdForged oybr / Jun 29 16:25:54 MCincubus Entomologists, rather ;-)br / Jun 29 16:25:59 Jalenack Bugkeeperbr / Jun 29 16:26:10 Morydd I'm willing to offer my services in that regard. I've been looking for a way to help the community more.br / Jun 29 16:26:11 h0bbel Bugletbr / Jun 29 16:26:11 photomatt any volunteers for this?br / Jun 29 16:26:21 MCincubus photomatt, you know I'm good for thatbr / Jun 29 16:26:22 photomatt Morydd: what's your forum username?br / Jun 29 16:26:25 Morydd moryddbr / Jun 29 16:26:30 photomatt MCincubus: you toobr / Jun 29 16:26:33 MCincubus markjaquithbr / Jun 29 16:26:42 mdawaffe Morydd: your new motto: when code gives you bugs, make bugjuicebr / Jun 29 16:26:46 skippy so ... someone flags a specific bug as this patch fixes this. I don't think that helps expidite development much.br / Jun 29 16:27:03 Firas skippy, for example,br / Jun 29 16:27:15 * factoryjoe has quit (Remote closed the connection)br / Jun 29 16:27:19 SuperLag photomatt: one more quick question. re: aforementioned issues with 1.5.1.3 , I've got an open Gentoo bug, to bump WP to 1.5.1.3. Is a 1.5.1.4 forthcoming, and I should wait?br / Jun 29 16:27:20 Firas http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/1469br / Jun 29 16:27:23 MCincubus skippy, it creates less work for Ryan and Matt, I think. They can just hit up that link and know that the patches have been reviewed by people with PHP experience.br / Jun 29 16:27:28 Firas this kinda thing should have comments or go in or be closedbr / Jun 29 16:27:36 Firas or this: http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/1468br / Jun 29 16:27:45 Firas lots of bugs just 'languishing'br / Jun 29 16:27:57 MCincubus Firas, even some with tested patchesbr / Jun 29 16:28:02 Firas yeahbr / Jun 29 16:28:14 skippy Firas: there. closed.br / Jun 29 16:28:15 * factoryjoe (~cmessina@63.109.159.158) has joined #wordpress-meetupbr / Jun 29 16:28:28 photomatt okay, skippy, morydd, and markjaquith now have maxium privs on tracbr / Jun 29 16:28:49 ColdForged Huzzah!br / Jun 29 16:28:49 Firas neat. progress! :)br / Jun 29 16:28:56 ColdForged All hail!br / Jun 29 16:29:01 Morydd it's not so much a matter of having the ability to adjust status of bugs, but the responsibility to do so.br / Jun 29 16:29:06 tunicwriter Now what of Community ideas and the harvesting of such...?br / Jun 29 16:29:14 photomatt they are hereby crowned bug gardeners, pending a better name ;)br / Jun 29 16:29:40 Morydd totally adding Bug Gardener to my resume.br / Jun 29 16:29:45 ColdForged With great power comes great potential for pain and suffering.br / Jun 29 16:29:57 mdawaffe arise sirs gardenersbr / Jun 29 16:30:08 * MCincubus revs up Trac and plows it into a brick wall.br / Jun 29 16:30:18 skippy So ... Morydd ... I'll start at the top of the list, you start at the bottom ... We'll be done by ... next Tuesday...br / Jun 29 16:30:23 ColdForged If only I knew PHP.br / Jun 29 16:30:27 Morydd Sweet.br / Jun 29 16:30:32 * ryanduff nights skippy, Morydd, and markjaquithbr / Jun 29 16:30:43 tunicwriter Now what of Community ideas and the harvesting of such...?br / Jun 29 16:30:46 Firas ok nextbr / Jun 29 16:31:02 Firas tunicwriter: explain?br / Jun 29 16:31:04 photomatt there are a ton of bugs, feel free to drop an email with questionsbr / Jun 29 16:31:05 MCincubus tunicwriter, bug gardeners should encourage filing of tickets, or doing it on their behalfbr / Jun 29 16:31:29 * westi resolves to read The Mythical Man-Month again in search of an appropriate name for these bug gardenersbr / Jun 29 16:31:33 tunicwriter MCincubus: that doesn't cover feature requests made here and there that none of the wp-devs notice...br / Jun 29 16:31:53 photomatt okay next, fundraising and eventsbr / Jun 29 16:32:07 ColdForged (harvest them and stick them in the codex?)br / Jun 29 16:32:14 MCincubus tunicwriter, well, if they are put into the bug system, bug gardeners can raise their awarenessbr / Jun 29 16:32:14 relle I think tunicwriter's comments need to be addressed first.br / Jun 29 16:32:19 Firas tunicwriter: they should file requests for enhancementsbr / Jun 29 16:32:29 relle We've dealt with bugs, but communcation to the WP Community is critical.br / Jun 29 16:32:33 tunicwriter But they're not bugs if they're new features...br / Jun 29 16:32:45 skippy trac has an enhancement otpion.br / Jun 29 16:32:47 Firas tunicwriter, no, they are, but relle brings up an importantn pointbr / Jun 29 16:32:48 mdawaffe tunicwriter: in trac they're called ticketsbr / Jun 29 16:32:55 skippy trac is for tickets not just bugsbr / Jun 29 16:33:16 tunicwriter Okay, then, for instance.. Features requested by people who don't know how to handle fscking Trac...br / Jun 29 16:33:28 photomatt people have been adding feature requests to Version 1.6br / Jun 29 16:33:32 photomatt it's actually been really interestingbr / Jun 29 16:33:36 relle on the Codex.br / Jun 29 16:33:37 MCincubus tunicwriter, I've filed such things on behalf of peoplebr / Jun 29 16:33:44 photomatt I think that's a fine place for them until the WP wishlist is upbr / Jun 29 16:33:50 MCincubus I ask them will you submit a ticket? too lazybr / Jun 29 16:34:04 Firas tunicwriter, I think a lot of the way wp works is the philosophy of, for example, firefox.. you have a platform and then drop on the extensionsbr / Jun 29 16:34:09 Firas if some extension gts really popularbr / Jun 29 16:34:10 relle Is there a way to add more frequent updates to the Dev Blog?br / Jun 29 16:34:11 tunicwriter Too lazy generally means I don't know how but don't wish to say sobr / Jun 29 16:34:21 relle Status reports.br / Jun 29 16:34:30 ColdForged Well, maybe a simple(r) interface for a wish list. Simply enter the wish and it's anonymously posted to Trac?br / Jun 29 16:34:30 relle Right now, it posts like one thing a month or every 20 days or so.br / Jun 29 16:34:31 MCincubus tunicwriter, yeah, so you can just do it for thembr / Jun 29 16:34:44 skippy Ryan's Commit Summaries would be great devblog items.br / Jun 29 16:34:50 * westi adds something to the end of the agendabr / Jun 29 16:34:55 photomatt let's get one thing being discussed at a timebr / Jun 29 16:34:56 skippy up front, front and center, explainign what has been brewing.br / Jun 29 16:35:01 RandyWalker relle: we had a reporter or something for a while... it didn't last very long...br / Jun 29 16:35:11 Firas Okbr / Jun 29 16:35:20 Firas here are the two items being discussedbr / Jun 29 16:35:26 photomatt are the bug issues clear?br / Jun 29 16:35:59 photomatt okay, big pause. let's move on from that for nowbr / Jun 29 16:36:04 photomatt onto dev blog re: rellebr / Jun 29 16:36:16 mdawaffe perhaps there needs to be both a dev blog and a community blogbr / Jun 29 16:36:25 MCincubus the dev blog is more community blog right nowbr / Jun 29 16:36:28 photomatt ideas for dev blog:br / Jun 29 16:36:30 * cyphase has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))br / Jun 29 16:36:37 relle I agree with ONE PLACE.br / Jun 29 16:36:38 photomatt switch planet to feedwordpress and include more community contentbr / Jun 29 16:36:38 Firas ryan's commit log type thing should go therebr / Jun 29 16:36:51 relle That would be a slick place to start.br / Jun 29 16:36:55 relle Ryan's thing.br / Jun 29 16:36:58 photomatt dev blog should have more educational content rather than just announcementsbr / Jun 29 16:37:03 relle Agreed.br / Jun 29 16:37:09 MCincubus ++br / Jun 29 16:37:11 Jalenack ++br / Jun 29 16:37:13 westi ++++br / Jun 29 16:37:14 mdawaffe do average users care about 1.6 devel?br / Jun 29 16:37:16 photomatt I *do not* think anything hyping future versions should be on the dev blogbr / Jun 29 16:37:21 masquerade maybe the dashboard should use an announceblog (or just the announce category of a blog)br / Jun 29 16:37:24 Podz ++br / Jun 29 16:37:25 photomatt please, think back to the nightmare we had before 1.5br / Jun 29 16:37:26 Firas I think we should update the dev blog everytime there's a new transcription of an IRC meetup :)br / Jun 29 16:37:27 ColdForged ++br / Jun 29 16:37:38 masquerade and the devblog can really be about the latest developmentsbr / Jun 29 16:37:39 Firas like such and such was discuseed, check it out herebr / Jun 29 16:37:40 photomatt it was impossible to support everyone on funky nightly versions because they were excited about the new stuffbr / Jun 29 16:38:05 relle Yes, but that was because it was NEW. If it is talked about ad nauseum, people won't be so fast to jump.br / Jun 29 16:38:06 Podz all funky versions are definitely not supported in the forumsbr / Jun 29 16:38:06 * cyphase (~cyphase@69.106.51.56) has joined #WordPress-Meetupbr / Jun 29 16:38:06 skippy maybe some folks can flag up good content they see (tutorials like chrisjdavis') that can get dashboard exposurebr / Jun 29 16:38:24 photomatt however codex stuff and lessons is perfect for the dev blogbr / Jun 29 16:38:31 relle Good content, educational, feature Codex articles, Forum topics, chrisjdavis stuff.br / Jun 29 16:38:37 photomatt relle sent me something a while ago, and it's totally my fault it wasn't postedbr / Jun 29 16:38:42 relle All good that preps for 1.6 but doesn't promote.br / Jun 29 16:38:45 skippy if it's not a blog of development status, then it should be called something other than devblogbr / Jun 29 16:38:58 Firas You can just split by category...br / Jun 29 16:38:58 photomatt skippy: well in the header it now just says blogbr / Jun 29 16:39:11 photomatt in the menu I meanbr / Jun 29 16:39:12 skippy summaries of here's what we're working on, none of which works yet...br / Jun 29 16:39:19 mdawaffe photomatt: but the url is confusingbr / Jun 29 16:39:25 relle Leave it as dev blog.br / Jun 29 16:39:26 MCincubus photomatt, listing best practices would be a good use. This hook is depreciated, here's how you should do itbr / Jun 29 16:39:30 skippy yes, /developmentbr / Jun 29 16:39:38 photomatt ryan's stuff shows up on the planet and on the dashboardbr / Jun 29 16:39:38 relle The development of WordPress is also the development of the users using WordPress.br / Jun 29 16:39:40 relle ;-)br / Jun 29 16:39:43 skippy and the Dashboard announces it as WordPress Development Blogbr / Jun 29 16:39:59 photomatt okay, let's forget the name, because we can argue about that FOREVERbr / Jun 29 16:40:05 relle agreed.br / Jun 29 16:40:17 relle Content and freshness of information is more critical.br / Jun 29 16:40:21 Firas Ok, so we want more pointers to stuff like hot new codex articles on the dev blogbr / Jun 29 16:40:22 photomatt let's just assume we'll go with the worst possible name for everything we do ;)br / Jun 29 16:40:26 MCincubus Increased posting frequency ++br / Jun 29 16:40:28 photomatt agreedbr / Jun 29 16:40:31 relle agreed.br / Jun 29 16:40:34 relle PLEASE.br / Jun 29 16:40:36 MCincubus 1 or 2 times a weekbr / Jun 29 16:40:41 photomatt what if these posts were written on the codex?br / Jun 29 16:40:41 relle More about Community events.br / Jun 29 16:40:44 relle And start small.br / Jun 29 16:40:45 photomatt collaborativelybr / Jun 29 16:40:46 relle Once a week is fine.br / Jun 29 16:40:48 relle Totally.br / Jun 29 16:40:57 relle Give it value but having good quality information.br / Jun 29 16:41:02 MCincubus as long as I can stick it in my feed readerbr / Jun 29 16:41:06 photomatt let's pick a day, say Tuesdaybr / Jun 29 16:41:14 photomatt for a WP educational post pointing to the codex, every weekbr / Jun 29 16:41:19 MCincubus photomatt, day before meetup?br / Jun 29 16:41:26 photomatt or thursdaybr / Jun 29 16:41:32 MCincubus Thursday sounds better to mebr / Jun 29 16:41:33 relle Thursday might be better.br / Jun 29 16:41:39 relle Then if something critical comes up.br / Jun 29 16:41:52 relle We should also include requests for gardeners and volunteers.br / Jun 29 16:41:54 photomatt okay thursday it isbr / Jun 29 16:42:01 relle Okay, pass info to you, or who?br / Jun 29 16:42:03 MCincubus people could spend the after-meetup time discussing the next day's postbr / Jun 29 16:42:17 photomatt it's short notice, but could an introductory one be done tomorrow?br / Jun 29 16:42:18 Firas So it's more about content than pointers?br / Jun 29 16:42:20 Morydd maybe Tuesday for educational (ie CDJ tutoria) and Thurs for Post-Meetup info?br / Jun 29 16:42:29 relle Slowly, for now, folks.br / Jun 29 16:42:33 relle Once a week is plenty.br / Jun 29 16:42:39 photomatt I would say pointers is better, to keep as much content as possible in the codexbr / Jun 29 16:42:39 relle We're moving up from once a month, remember.br / Jun 29 16:42:45 photomatt truebr / Jun 29 16:42:46 relle Agreed.br / Jun 29 16:43:00 Firas Yeah, that's what i'd like too... featured article, bullet list of new things you might want to check out too, that kinda thingbr / Jun 29 16:43:03 MCincubus yeah, maybe just small examples, and then The codex has much more info [link]br / Jun 29 16:43:13 relle We can use the featured articles list for now.br / Jun 29 16:43:20 relle There is about 6 months worth of those, once a week.br / Jun 29 16:43:27 relle Connecting the dots.br / Jun 29 16:43:29 westi maybe a New on the codex this week (top 5) list at the endbr / Jun 29 16:43:36 relle Okay, WHO?br / Jun 29 16:43:38 photomatt lists are goodbr / Jun 29 16:43:39 MCincubus good reason to refresh them too, rellebr / Jun 29 16:43:46 MichaelH person or persons responsible for posting to dev blog?br / Jun 29 16:43:48 photomatt relle: you're the most prolific writerbr / Jun 29 16:43:49 relle They are changed automatically once a week.br / Jun 29 16:43:56 relle eeeeekbr / Jun 29 16:44:02 Morydd hehbr / Jun 29 16:44:05 * relle thinks.br / Jun 29 16:44:07 relle EEEEEEEKbr / Jun 29 16:44:08 photomatt they can be written collaboratively on the codexbr / Jun 29 16:44:12 mdawaffe someone will have to stop relle from writing a novel each week ;)br / Jun 29 16:44:14 skippy Can we link to a live working example of the item being showcased, and then say Read how to do this here ?br / Jun 29 16:44:16 relle I can handle Codex stuff.br / Jun 29 16:44:25 relle That is already done for the next six - eight months.br / Jun 29 16:44:29 relle Short and sweet features.br / Jun 29 16:44:32 relle We can pull from there.br / Jun 29 16:44:35 photomatt okay, perfectbr / Jun 29 16:44:40 relle But who is the coordinator for these?br / Jun 29 16:44:49 relle I/WE/THEY send them to you?br / Jun 29 16:44:50 Firas photomatt, what about meetup transcription notes? not the greatest of ideas to point to them them from the dev blog every week? I'm thinking of what mozillazine doesbr / Jun 29 16:44:58 photomatt yes, I can post them on thursdaybr / Jun 29 16:45:01 photomatt sbr / Jun 29 16:45:16 relle So Wednesday night/Thurs morning deadline.br / Jun 29 16:45:25 photomatt Yepbr / Jun 29 16:45:47 relle I'll create a page for information on this in my UserPage, so all interested, check User:Lorellebr / Jun 29 16:45:50 * relle cringes.br / Jun 29 16:45:59 Firas * New Page for Fundraising and Events - sign up and ideasbr / Jun 29 16:46:01 photomatt three cheers for rellebr / Jun 29 16:46:03 relle http://codex.wordpress.org/Fundraising_and_Promotionsbr / Jun 29 16:46:06 relle shut up.br / Jun 29 16:46:08 Firas hip hip hooray :)br / Jun 29 16:46:10 westi cheersbr / Jun 29 16:46:15 mdawaffe hip hip horraybr / Jun 29 16:46:32 relle okay, We started a list for fundraising stuff for WordPress looking for ideas and volunteers.br / Jun 29 16:46:35 relle Get your asses in there.br / Jun 29 16:46:50 relle We'll bring proposals to the meeting as this develops.br / Jun 29 16:47:02 photomatt sounds greatbr / Jun 29 16:47:08 relle AND NO WET WORDPRESS T-SHIRT CONTEST REQUESTS!br / Jun 29 16:47:13 relle We've had 42 of those already.br / Jun 29 16:47:14 * skippy (~skippy@skippy.net) has left #wordpress-meetup (Free as in Puppies!)br / Jun 29 16:47:15 relle ;-)br / Jun 29 16:47:19 mdawaffe how about a ...br / Jun 29 16:47:22 mdawaffe oh - never mindbr / Jun 29 16:47:25 relle GO TO THE PAGE!br / Jun 29 16:47:47 relle 42 requests, that is.br / Jun 29 16:47:51 masquerade how about a wet [insert your choice of an undergarmet here] contest?br / Jun 29 16:48:00 Firas Backup Week: July 23-30 News out end of this week!br / Jun 29 16:48:01 westi Miss Wordpress?br / Jun 29 16:48:02 * relle signsbr / Jun 29 16:48:12 relle http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Lorelle/Backup_Weekbr / Jun 29 16:48:20 relle Podz and I are getting this going but we need help to promote it.br / Jun 29 16:48:22 relle Sign up.br / Jun 29 16:48:41 relle I want to put together a team to handle all the PR stuff we do. So go sign up for both of these.br / Jun 29 16:48:44 relle Going to be awesome.br / Jun 29 16:48:53 photomatt I'll be happy to post whatever you come up with to the dev blogbr / Jun 29 16:48:59 relle Podz has gathered info from tons of different admin setups to make this work.br / Jun 29 16:49:00 relle Great.br / Jun 29 16:49:20 MCincubus relle, if you want a good reason why backup is important: http://sayanythingblog.com/2005/06/27/powweb-web-hosting-sucks/br / Jun 29 16:49:34 relle Podz: make a note of that.br / Jun 29 16:49:47 tunicwriter Oh, but when I say Powweb sucks, no one listens to me.br / Jun 29 16:49:50 relle Unfortunately, we think the best promotion will be some really big crashes that hit the forum for pleas of help.br / Jun 29 16:49:59 MCincubus a near-horror story to make people realize the importance of backupbr / Jun 29 16:50:04 relle But information like this is great so add it to the page.br / Jun 29 16:50:12 Firas yeah, just ask permission, and quote them :)br / Jun 29 16:50:14 relle We'll use all the examples we can get, including three of my own in the past two weeks.br / Jun 29 16:50:17 Firas like pr campaignsbr / Jun 29 16:50:18 * relle sighs.br / Jun 29 16:50:23 relle Totally.br / Jun 29 16:50:31 relle So if you want to get involved, it will be great fun.br / Jun 29 16:50:37 relle Forum plus Codex teaming up.br / Jun 29 16:51:17 relle next.br / Jun 29 16:51:25 photomatt Shit happens.br / Jun 29 16:51:37 Firas Install WordPress for a Friend - Status?br / Jun 29 16:51:38 relle EXCELLENT!br / Jun 29 16:51:56 factoryjoe hey, that idea sounds familiarbr / Jun 29 16:51:59 Morydd what' is it?br / Jun 29 16:52:12 factoryjoe photomatt: did someone else come up with that too?br / Jun 29 16:52:13 Firas factoryjoe: to whatbr / Jun 29 16:52:22 factoryjoe to an idea i suggested to matt awhile agobr / Jun 29 16:52:31 Firas it's a carry-over from a two week ago meetingbr / Jun 29 16:52:34 factoryjoe as part of the spreadwordpress campaign he and i discussedbr / Jun 29 16:52:42 factoryjoe oh, i talked to him months ago about thatbr / Jun 29 16:52:43 photomatt the idea is a microformat for saying who set up your blog for youbr / Jun 29 16:52:47 factoryjoe ahbr / Jun 29 16:52:50 photomatt I chatted with Tantek about it toobr / Jun 29 16:52:56 factoryjoe similar to the spread creative commons stuff i'm doingbr / Jun 29 16:52:59 factoryjoe goodbr / Jun 29 16:53:01 photomatt with a MF it's totally decentralizedbr / Jun 29 16:53:06 factoryjoe i need the MF for spreadCC toobr / Jun 29 16:53:17 factoryjoe for derivative worksbr / Jun 29 16:53:20 photomatt we had a few good suggestions before, like wordsmithbr / Jun 29 16:53:26 factoryjoe i talked to theryanking about thisbr / Jun 29 16:53:27 relle LOVE THAT.br / Jun 29 16:53:42 factoryjoe basically a genealogy of wordpress installsbr / Jun 29 16:53:50 factoryjoe who referred who referred whobr / Jun 29 16:53:51 photomatt we have a list on the codex somewhere of the suggested terms, right?br / Jun 29 16:53:54 photomatt factoryjoe: yepbr / Jun 29 16:53:57 factoryjoe coolbr / Jun 29 16:53:59 relle From your user page, photomattbr / Jun 29 16:54:05 Firas http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Matt/Rel_Ideasbr / Jun 29 16:54:06 factoryjoe speaking of, i have to go have a call w/ creative commonsbr / Jun 29 16:54:07 factoryjoe about thisbr / Jun 29 16:54:17 photomatt factoryjoe: and weren't you coming over for WP wednesday? :-pbr / Jun 29 16:54:39 factoryjoe i'm here, aren't I?br / Jun 29 16:54:39 photomatt Firas: thanksbr / Jun 29 16:54:53 factoryjoe hmm, maybe i can stay here and watch during the callbr / Jun 29 16:54:58 factoryjoe which started in t-minus 2 minutesbr / Jun 29 16:55:02 factoryjoe i mean, startsbr / Jun 29 16:55:05 factoryjoe anyway, carry onbr / Jun 29 16:55:11 photomatt my current fav is wordsmithbr / Jun 29 16:55:19 relle CHEERSbr / Jun 29 16:55:46 factoryjoe yeah, wordsmith is alrighbr / Jun 29 16:55:47 factoryjoe tbr / Jun 29 16:56:02 factoryjoe ligature is a good wordbr / Jun 29 16:56:06 relle Can we go with this and move on to making it happen?br / Jun 29 16:56:08 factoryjoe and connects two letters togetherbr / Jun 29 16:56:33 relle Or at least setting a date and a plan to promote it?br / Jun 29 16:57:01 relle We will have to know how it works in order to help explain it on the forums and all.br / Jun 29 16:57:06 * ColdForged has quit ()br / Jun 29 16:57:26 Firas ok, let's put it on the agenda for next weekbr / Jun 29 16:58:14 Firas unless photomatt has more to say about it, or someone else..br / Jun 29 16:58:16 Firas * New page for forum support discussion Support Forum Volunteersbr / Jun 29 16:58:18 Firas * Can we have a mailing list for this project please ?br / Jun 29 16:58:23 Podz :)br / Jun 29 16:58:54 Firas Podz, can you kickstart discussion on those bullets? i don't see what it meansbr / Jun 29 16:58:55 Podz It's not for asking if we can have phpbb, and it's aimed squarely at people who do already contribute helpbr / Jun 29 16:59:19 Podz we have no place to discuss issues and it's a never-ending taskbr / Jun 29 16:59:29 * relle applauds.br / Jun 29 16:59:31 photomatt okay, and you think it warrants a new mailing list?br / Jun 29 16:59:32 Podz between us we could spot issuesbr / Jun 29 16:59:34 Firas so like wp-support@ ?br / Jun 29 16:59:46 photomatt it should NOT be called support, becaus then peolpe will try to get support on itbr / Jun 29 16:59:50 relle wp-forumsupport@br / Jun 29 16:59:51 Firas yeahbr / Jun 29 16:59:53 mdawaffe wp-forumsbr / Jun 29 16:59:55 Podz yes - we need a focus. if it dies, so be it but I think I've enough to kick it offbr / Jun 29 16:59:57 relle wp-forumsbr / Jun 29 16:59:59 photomatt wp-mavensbr / Jun 29 17:00:00 Firas wp-mavens, or forums, or whateverbr / Jun 29 17:00:05 Firas :) jinxbr / Jun 29 17:00:22 photomatt I'm hesitant to start new listsbr / Jun 29 17:00:25 relle mavens might make it too exclusive but wp-forumvolunteers might be generic.br / Jun 29 17:00:26 photomatt but if you think it's important I'm happy tobr / Jun 29 17:00:27 Podz coders have their list, docs have theirsbr / Jun 29 17:00:33 relle IT IS IMPORTANT.br / Jun 29 17:00:37 Podz and we *need* more helpersbr / Jun 29 17:00:38 h0bbel ok, fsck mebr / Jun 29 17:00:45 h0bbel oops, wrong #chan sorry. :)br / Jun 29 17:00:45 photomatt okay, I'll make the list nowbr / Jun 29 17:00:46 Podz this may help people who want to helpbr / Jun 29 17:00:54 relle He's right.br / Jun 29 17:01:03 relle People need to know what is going on, and what will be happening.br / Jun 29 17:01:10 relle It will help them prepare for....stuff.br / Jun 29 17:01:15 Firas would this be better off as a forum or mailinglist ?br / Jun 29 17:01:15 photomatt okay, let's start the listbr / Jun 29 17:01:21 westi What is the current way some one becomes a maven?br / Jun 29 17:01:26 Podz we can bounce the stuff around and reach conclusions between those of us that live there :)br / Jun 29 17:01:27 photomatt in one month let's review how it's done, if it's useful let's keep it if not let's axe itbr / Jun 29 17:01:35 photomatt westi: the list would be open to anyonebr / Jun 29 17:01:38 Podz okay...br / Jun 29 17:01:42 mdawaffe (Firas: forum^2)br / Jun 29 17:01:42 relle It needs at least three months.br / Jun 29 17:01:44 relle Gees.br / Jun 29 17:01:49 relle Give it a fair shake.br / Jun 29 17:01:53 photomatt okay, three monthsbr / Jun 29 17:01:56 relle It will take time just to spread the word.br / Jun 29 17:01:59 westi photomatt: i meant more in the context of on the forum not the listbr / Jun 29 17:02:00 relle And it's summer!br / Jun 29 17:02:03 photomatt Let's just review it's effectiveness after a set period of timebr / Jun 29 17:02:06 Firas Developersbr / Jun 29 17:02:08 Firas * Status of 1.5.2/1.6br / Jun 29 17:02:10 Morydd if the list is open to anyone, what prevents it from being used by people who are seeking support?br / Jun 29 17:02:21 relle BRAVO PODZbr / Jun 29 17:02:23 Firas Morydd: the same that stops them from wp-hakcers or wp-docsbr / Jun 29 17:02:24 photomatt Morydd: we don't call it a support listbr / Jun 29 17:02:25 Podz Morydd:: they will be firmly directed to the forumsbr / Jun 29 17:02:29 Jalenack a big This is not support bannerbr / Jun 29 17:02:33 Podz no support whatsoeverbr / Jun 29 17:02:39 Morydd check.br / Jun 29 17:02:41 Podz at all, to anyone everbr / Jun 29 17:03:06 relle Only supporting supporters.br / Jun 29 17:03:07 relle ;-)br / Jun 29 17:03:08 Podz westi:: that is exactly the sort of thing for discussionbr / Jun 29 17:03:15 westi Podz: okbr / Jun 29 17:03:17 photomatt I thought supporters might be a good namebr / Jun 29 17:03:20 photomatt but would attract the same thingbr / Jun 29 17:03:29 relle wp-supporters@?br / Jun 29 17:03:30 photomatt okay, the list will be up as soon as I can log into the list manager doohickybr / Jun 29 17:03:31 Firas plus you get a place to snicker about xerocool's yet-another-thread and whether to get rid of the bumps in thatbr / Jun 29 17:03:41 mdawaffe (pony)br / Jun 29 17:04:06 photomatt support mavens on the forum are people who help out a ton and are suggested by podz to be modsbr / Jun 29 17:04:12 masquerade Firas: so I'm not the only one that noticesbr / Jun 29 17:04:25 relle wp-forum or wp-supporters are both good.br / Jun 29 17:04:27 relle not mavens.br / Jun 29 17:04:34 relle Keep that for the respect it deserves.br / Jun 29 17:04:45 Firas masquerade, kaf/podz/c have been dealing with him for ages, you and i just read his stuff :)br / Jun 29 17:05:19 mdawaffe NEXT: Status of 1.5.2/1.6br / Jun 29 17:05:20 westi photomatt: okbr / Jun 29 17:05:57 mdawaffe As mentioned before, these are cool: http://boren.nu/archives/2005/06/27/wp-commit-digest-for-june-17-27/br / Jun 29 17:06:17 mdawaffe does anything need to be said about this topic?br / Jun 29 17:06:48 Firas doubt it, unless it's something about whether/when/how the fix to 1513 will be outbr / Jun 29 17:06:55 SuperLag I'm still curious about what's going to happen with 1.5.1.3.br / Jun 29 17:07:33 MCincubus actually, I have something I'd like some feedback onbr / Jun 29 17:07:47 mdawaffe I suppose a meta topic about the same thing would be to expand the group of dedicated testersbr / Jun 29 17:08:35 MCincubus Thoughts on preprocessing posts and storing the processed posts in the DB? http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/2005-June/001622.htmlbr / Jun 29 17:09:07 MCincubus Ryan and michel_v seem to be on board, but no one else chimed inbr / Jun 29 17:09:46 masquerade personally, I think its a great idea, if done correctlybr / Jun 29 17:09:52 masquerade if implemented poorly, it'll go to hellbr / Jun 29 17:10:45 mdawaffe so the data would be there twice? raw in post_content and filtered in post_content_filtered?br / Jun 29 17:10:54 MCincubus mdawaffe, yesbr / Jun 29 17:11:03 mdawaffe fantastic ideabr / Jun 29 17:11:42 MCincubus the vast majority of filters could be run ahead of time and stored in the DBbr / Jun 29 17:12:00 mdawaffe DB size implications?br / Jun 29 17:12:06 MCincubus I tried using Textile2 last year, and PHP ran out of memory on month pagesbr / Jun 29 17:12:18 MCincubus mdawaffe, would effectively double the side of the posts tablebr / Jun 29 17:12:32 MCincubus I think storage space is cheaper than a faster serverbr / Jun 29 17:12:41 MCincubus double the SIZEbr / Jun 29 17:13:03 mdawaffe oh I agreebr / Jun 29 17:13:12 * mdawaffe checks sql tablesbr / Jun 29 17:13:15 masquerade I agree, as long as queries aren't pulling out unnecessary stuff twice (pulling out unfiltered or filtered where not needed) we should be good on database efficiencybr / Jun 29 17:13:43 masquerade The cost is size is easily outweighed by server load, especially on shared hostsbr / Jun 29 17:14:09 masquerade The cost of size ratherbr / Jun 29 17:14:16 MCincubus yeah... activate textile2 and an acronym plugin and things grind to a stopbr / Jun 29 17:14:31 MCincubus pre-processed, you're back to the speed of a stock WP install, likely.br / Jun 29 17:14:40 masquerade possibly fasterbr / Jun 29 17:15:08 MCincubus and by using the_content as the 'live' filter, it's backwards compatbr / Jun 29 17:15:32 MCincubus obviously, you'll want plugin authors to move their hooks to the pre-filtered version, but that can happen gradually.br / Jun 29 17:15:48 photomatt that's why we added the extra field in the first placebr / Jun 29 17:15:54 masquerade I think breaking post plugins between vversion should be the least of our worriesbr / Jun 29 17:16:11 photomatt well the more compatibility the betterbr / Jun 29 17:16:12 MCincubus well, it won't be a worry ;-)br / Jun 29 17:16:26 photomatt most major changes we do don't break old stuffbr / Jun 29 17:16:35 photomatt especially wrt loops and templatesbr / Jun 29 17:16:44 masquerade photomatt: of course, but let's not have compatibility at the expense of a feature that could help out a lotbr / Jun 29 17:17:06 mdawaffe would there be an issue with multiple post filtering plugins? one using _filtered the other still using raw?br / Jun 29 17:17:22 MCincubus mdawaffe, filtered would be passed to the live versionbr / Jun 29 17:17:28 mdawaffe oh ohbr / Jun 29 17:17:32 mdawaffe right-obr / Jun 29 17:17:36 MCincubus for Google Hilight etcbr / Jun 29 17:17:48 masquerade ohh, now that's geniusbr / Jun 29 17:18:01 mdawaffe then if a plugin wants to be first, it will have to use the filtered hookbr / Jun 29 17:18:19 photomatt yepbr / Jun 29 17:18:23 * BDyret (~BergensDy@235.80-202-119.nextgentel.com) has left #wordpress-meetupbr / Jun 29 17:18:29 mdawaffe but I suppose that both makes sense and is obviousbr / Jun 29 17:18:43 MCincubus updating can be done on the fly (for old entries) and on update/edit/savebr / Jun 29 17:18:51 photomatt let's discuss that more on the hackers listbr / Jun 29 17:18:55 photomatt to involve more peoplebr / Jun 29 17:19:02 photomatt I think we all think it's a pretty good ideabr / Jun 29 17:19:08 MCincubus okay cool!br / Jun 29 17:19:25 Firas Codexbr / Jun 29 17:19:27 Firas * Codex Cleanup Dates: June 18-26, 2005 - statusbr / Jun 29 17:19:29 Firas * Special thanks to everyone who helped.br / Jun 29 17:19:35 relle SUCCESS!!!br / Jun 29 17:19:39 relle Thanks to everyone.br / Jun 29 17:19:47 photomatt :)br / Jun 29 17:19:53 mdawaffe Thank you everyone!br / Jun 29 17:19:56 mdawaffe everyone++br / Jun 29 17:20:06 Podz relle++br / Jun 29 17:20:08 MichaelH Special recognition to Lorelle for managing cleanup process as well as her writing and editing contributions!br / Jun 29 17:20:15 mdawaffe (codex is awesome and relle rocks the house)br / Jun 29 17:20:19 relle SPECIAL RECOGNITION TO EVERYONE.br / Jun 29 17:20:28 relle I just held the broom and dust pan.br / Jun 29 17:20:40 Firas New Topicsbr / Jun 29 17:20:41 Firas * Define purpose of Weekly Meetup: Discussion of the business of WordPress or exclusively for WordPress development issues.br / Jun 29 17:20:45 relle We had 21 new docs and more on the way.!br / Jun 29 17:20:50 relle YEAHbr / Jun 29 17:21:08 Firas I don't think that's the most precise summary of the purpose discussion that cropped up the other day :)br / Jun 29 17:21:27 relle No but it is a summation of the question.br / Jun 29 17:21:41 relle Developers want their own chat time with Matt.br / Jun 29 17:21:54 relle Some thing/thought this was it.br / Jun 29 17:22:12 relle Unfortunately, everyone wants chat time with matt. ;-)br / Jun 29 17:22:39 Morydd Matt should set up a 900 number. (Can we add that to the fundraisers?)br / Jun 29 17:22:44 tunicwriter That or they want to meet him in an alley to test their crowbars... or meet him in bed :obr / Jun 29 17:23:01 michel_v I don't want to meet matt in bed, thanksbr / Jun 29 17:23:02 photomatt well if wordpress wednesdays takes off, I'll be around every wednesday from noon on exclusively for WP dev chat and workbr / Jun 29 17:23:11 Firas The idea was, Owen wanted to discuss the dashboard, and he was told to move on, so it was kinda like gee, we spend so much time talking about tinkering with the codex etc and talking, why not discuss something relevantbr / Jun 29 17:23:18 relle You didn't fully explain WordPress Wednesdays.br / Jun 29 17:23:19 Firas but yeah, the wordpress wendesday thing sounds gratbr / Jun 29 17:23:25 Firas yeah, what is it?br / Jun 29 17:23:27 tunicwriter MCincubus: saw it earlier :)br / Jun 29 17:23:30 photomatt ahembr / Jun 29 17:23:56 photomatt relle: trying to get bay area geeks over at my house on wednesdays to help out with WPbr / Jun 29 17:24:08 * relle faints.br / Jun 29 17:24:12 relle :Dbr / Jun 29 17:24:12 Jalenack coolbr / Jun 29 17:24:14 MCincubus photomatt, good call on the JS geeksbr / Jun 29 17:24:16 photomatt enticing them with free food and libationsbr / Jun 29 17:24:30 tunicwriter And meeting you in bed?br / Jun 29 17:24:33 * Jalenack is in Berkeleybr / Jun 29 17:24:33 relle Don't anyone tell geeksmakeme hot about this.br / Jun 29 17:24:37 relle She'll move to SF.br / Jun 29 17:24:44 RandyWalker lolbr / Jun 29 17:24:52 tunicwriter And meet him in bed! :obr / Jun 29 17:24:59 Jalenack ...br / Jun 29 17:25:00 photomatt alex russell (dojo/jot) actually volunteered to help out, he's over right now looking at the expandable post areabr / Jun 29 17:25:00 relle This sounds great.br / Jun 29 17:25:15 relle And you said opening up discussions from noon on....?br / Jun 29 17:25:30 photomatt not everyone can come every week, but if it becomes a regular thing perhaps different people can drop in at different timesbr / Jun 29 17:25:34 mdawaffe someone needs to start a rival WP gang: Austin or LA or somethingbr / Jun 29 17:25:46 factoryjoe wait, photomatt you're actually having WP wednesdays?br / Jun 29 17:25:52 Jalenack that'd be fun...br / Jun 29 17:25:59 factoryjoe in person?br / Jun 29 17:26:00 Morydd can the rival gangs have elaborate dance/fightsbr / Jun 29 17:26:04 photomatt factoryjoe: yeah!br / Jun 29 17:26:05 mdawaffe Morydd: yesbr / Jun 29 17:26:09 factoryjoe nicebr / Jun 29 17:26:15 factoryjoe you're still coming out w/ us tonight right?br / Jun 29 17:26:19 photomatt that's what I was trying to say earlierbr / Jun 29 17:26:24 factoryjoe i think alex is coming tonightbr / Jun 29 17:26:25 factoryjoe so... heh nicebr / Jun 29 17:26:31 Jalenack how many people do you think would come to these things?br / Jun 29 17:26:36 factoryjoe 5,000,000br / Jun 29 17:26:41 michel_v what about those not in the bay area?br / Jun 29 17:26:42 photomatt I imagine it would vary a lotbr / Jun 29 17:26:47 SuperLag photomatt: I'm really not trying to beat a dead horse... but one more quick question. re: aforementioned issues with 1.5.1.3 , I've got an open Gentoo bug, to bump WP to 1.5.1.3. Is a 1.5.1.4 forthcoming, and I should wait?br / Jun 29 17:26:50 mdawaffe how many people outside the bay are going to be put out?br / Jun 29 17:27:08 photomatt michel_v: well I can't open up my fridge to them, but I was thinking the wp-meetup channel could be used all daybr / Jun 29 17:27:24 photomatt SuperLag: PM mebr / Jun 29 17:27:30 michel_v alrightbr / Jun 29 17:27:49 * westi heads off to bed ... it's getting latebr / Jun 29 17:27:58 * westi is now known as westi|gonebr / Jun 29 17:28:00 Jalenack what would happen at Wordpress Wednesdays?br / Jun 29 17:28:18 photomatt like a coding sprintbr / Jun 29 17:28:31 Jalenack everyone crowds around photomatt's computer and watches...?br / Jun 29 17:28:34 Firas lolbr / Jun 29 17:28:55 Jalenack with popcorn :pbr / Jun 29 17:28:57 photomatt for example I'm going to be in dallas end of july, going to try and get together with ryan to do a coding sprint then toobr / Jun 29 17:28:58 michel_v Jalenack: that would be stupid. everyone chimes in with ideas and stuff gets worked onbr / Jun 29 17:29:14 Firas ok what's nextbr / Jun 29 17:29:16 relle he's being silly.br / Jun 29 17:29:17 Jalenack nicebr / Jun 29 17:29:25 Firas * Development Planning - Should feature requestors be guided to this document?br / Jun 29 17:29:38 robla http://codex.wordpress.org/Development_Planningbr / Jun 29 17:29:44 Morydd or should they be directed to trac as previously mentioned?br / Jun 29 17:29:46 photomatt right now feature requests for the next version are going to the bottom of the Version 1.6 page, I think that's fine for nowbr / Jun 29 17:30:05 relle I think robla has something more concrete in mind.br / Jun 29 17:30:33 Firas robla?br / Jun 29 17:30:35 * tunicwriter is now known as tunic|awaybr / Jun 29 17:30:51 robla I'm trying to document how to best request a feature for maximum viabilitybr / Jun 29 17:31:13 robla exclusion of trac from this doc was an oversight...I plan to addressbr / Jun 29 17:31:41 photomatt http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-forumsbr / Jun 29 17:31:50 * alexsmith has quit (Nick collision from services.)br / Jun 29 17:31:56 * alexsmith (~hauntedun@HauntedUnix.sourcemage) has joined #wordpress-meetupbr / Jun 29 17:32:16 robla it's a way for non-technical people to contribute...make sure there's a solid specbr / Jun 29 17:32:20 MCincubus photomatt, real quick... how should tickets with a workable patch be marked? I just assigned it to you and accepted it. That right?br / Jun 29 17:32:45 photomatt robla: a few weeks ago we discussed a wp wishlist system that I think will be ideal for thatbr / Jun 29 17:32:54 photomatt it's on the todo right after the plugin directorybr / Jun 29 17:33:06 photomatt so that's why I'm saying wiki page for now, and something more structured in the futurebr / Jun 29 17:33:18 photomatt it wouldn't make sense to make a complicated process now that will be gone in a few monthsbr / Jun 29 17:33:43 photomatt MCincubus: why not change the title to put [patch] in itbr / Jun 29 17:34:06 MCincubus works4mebr / Jun 29 17:34:16 robla this isn't about requiring more process. this is giving people who have a ton of energy and enthusiasm about a feature something to do besides whine to wp-hackersbr / Jun 29 17:35:05 robla i'll look at the wishlist system, but I can't believe that you don't want specifications for new features if someone is willing to write them up. Correct?br / Jun 29 17:35:51 photomatt if people want to write things up like that, their user: page is a good place for that sort of thingbr / Jun 29 17:36:32 relle Pardon me for jumpin in, robla, but photomatt, the development proposal page is a toc of proposals that ARE on user's pages.br / Jun 29 17:36:32 robla k....how should the proposal be structured on their user page?br / Jun 29 17:36:50 relle robla and I talked this out as how to best work this on the Codex. That is what we came up with.br / Jun 29 17:37:00 relle It's a harmless way for people to make proposals.br / Jun 29 17:37:08 photomatt okay, then that's finebr / Jun 29 17:37:28 relle Instructions should be available for moving those into more sophisticated tracking proceedures if the proposal is accepted.br / Jun 29 17:37:34 relle It's not a wish list.br / Jun 29 17:37:39 relle It's an I want to do.br / Jun 29 17:37:53 relle Am I on track, robla?br / Jun 29 17:38:00 robla relle: yupbr / Jun 29 17:38:18 photomatt the I want to do process is usually writing a plugin or filing a patch on the bug trackerbr / Jun 29 17:38:50 relle http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Glutnix/Advanced_User_Permissions_System_Proposalbr / Jun 29 17:38:52 relle example.br / Jun 29 17:39:05 robla actually, it's a single document describing how to request a feature, as well as a single place to aggregate research into feature areasbr / Jun 29 17:39:18 relle http://codex.wordpress.org/User:RobLa/Access_Control_Developmentbr / Jun 29 17:39:19 relle another.br / Jun 29 17:39:55 photomatt okay, that looks goodbr / Jun 29 17:40:15 Firas the last issue on the notes is about IRCbr / Jun 29 17:40:15 photomatt for that specific case, the user system is not something that can be overhauled lightlybr / Jun 29 17:40:49 photomatt so that issue will move slowly regardless of whatever process around itbr / Jun 29 17:40:51 ryanduff yay!br / Jun 29 17:41:02 photomatt that doesn't mean that it's ignored, it just means it's central and hardbr / Jun 29 17:41:02 robla photomatt: understoodbr / Jun 29 17:41:21 masquerade meetup still going?br / Jun 29 17:41:32 relle ybr / Jun 29 17:41:40 photomatt yes but let's start wrapping it upbr / Jun 29 17:41:41 ryanduff masquerade: yup, my topic is still waiting :Pbr / Jun 29 17:41:48 robla photomatt: that's why I think it's particularly important for that particular feature to start with specs, etc, and have a more formal process.br / Jun 29 17:41:51 Firas so masquerade and ryanduff want to talk about ircbr / Jun 29 17:41:51 masquerade ryanduff: oh good, that's the one I didn't want to missbr / Jun 29 17:41:56 * cyphase has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))br / Jun 29 17:41:57 * robla done on that topicbr / Jun 29 17:42:00 photomatt robla: okay, noted, moving onbr / Jun 29 17:42:25 relle IRCbr / Jun 29 17:43:00 relle ryanduff?br / Jun 29 17:43:12 ryanduff yesbr / Jun 29 17:43:16 relle It's your turn.br / Jun 29 17:43:33 ryanduff photomatt: i think we should give voice to members on irc (not myself, its not for my gain)br / Jun 29 17:43:40 photomatt voice?br / Jun 29 17:43:46 photomatt meaning some people can talk and others can't?br / Jun 29 17:43:52 ryanduff it shows a + before their namebr / Jun 29 17:44:00 ryanduff like in #gallerybr / Jun 29 17:44:03 Morydd no, you can assign voice without making the channel moderated.br / Jun 29 17:44:23 ryanduff its an easy way to distinguishbr / Jun 29 17:44:25 photomatt okaybr / Jun 29 17:44:34 photomatt you know freenode has a general policy against that?br / Jun 29 17:44:34 ryanduff masquerade: did you have anything to say on itbr / Jun 29 17:44:48 masquerade ryanduff: I just wanted to get my bit in and say I concurbr / Jun 29 17:44:52 ryanduff i was not aware of thatbr / Jun 29 17:45:01 ryanduff link?br / Jun 29 17:45:06 photomatt my philosophy is everyone is that introducing hierarchies into the system sucksbr / Jun 29 17:45:45 photomatt especially something like IRC, let's just keep it flat and fairbr / Jun 29 17:46:11 h0bbel photomatt: afaik they have a policy against OP's not Voicebr / Jun 29 17:46:27 ryanduff masquerade: your supporting argument please...br / Jun 29 17:46:32 photomatt why wouldn't the same reasoning apply to voice?br / Jun 29 17:46:44 photomatt it's even worse than ops, because it has no functional powerbr / Jun 29 17:46:47 photomatt it's just a badgebr / Jun 29 17:46:55 h0bbel it has, if we moderate the channelbr / Jun 29 17:47:07 masquerade From what I saw on the list, and a few occasions in the channel, people wander in and don't want to listen to anyone that they believe do not have authoritybr / Jun 29 17:47:10 MCincubus Gotta go grab dinner, catch you all later.br / Jun 29 17:47:15 * MCincubus is now known as MCincubus|foodbr / Jun 29 17:47:41 photomatt and putting +s in front of people's names will solve the problem of stupid people coming in?br / Jun 29 17:47:57 photomatt if anything people should link to their forum profile if an issue of authority comes upbr / Jun 29 17:47:59 photomatt or your blogbr / Jun 29 17:48:07 ryanduff its not authoritybr / Jun 29 17:48:14 ryanduff how many times have i been over thisbr / Jun 29 17:48:15 masquerade so, I agree that something like voice could be used to distinguish people on a nominee basis (not by oneself of course) that are known not to give silly advice or blatently wrong advicebr / Jun 29 17:48:34 photomatt if people give blatantly wrong advice they should be asked to leavebr / Jun 29 17:48:36 mdawaffe masquerade: is there anyone on #wordpress that gives silly/wrong advice?br / Jun 29 17:48:43 ryanduff people who know wordpress, are experiencedbr / Jun 29 17:49:01 masquerade mdawaffe: I've seen it happen in the past, and people who wander in from other channels fear it happening because they have not been aroundbr / Jun 29 17:49:19 ryanduff photomatt: your last statement just goes against everythingbr / Jun 29 17:49:33 ryanduff we can't recognize the expreienced users, yet stupid people should be asked to leavebr / Jun 29 17:49:35 mdawaffe masquerade: hm. the info I've gotten has always been sound, but I'm not on it as much as othersbr / Jun 29 17:49:46 ryanduff thats certainly a welcoming groupbr / Jun 29 17:49:50 photomatt people doing harm to the community should be asked to leave, yesbr / Jun 29 17:50:07 ryanduff but people who do good are still an average joe?br / Jun 29 17:50:20 h0bbel We strongly suggest that you avoid configuring your channel to auto-op. Use the chanserv op command to obtain channel operator status only when needed. This will help to keep your channel temperature low.br / Jun 29 17:50:23 h0bbel thats the policybr / Jun 29 17:50:26 ryanduff people who give hours out of their day to support the software we all lovebr / Jun 29 17:50:52 photomatt are the same as when they go into the channel as ryan or Ibr / Jun 29 17:50:55 michel_v masquerade: never distinguish stupid people with +br / Jun 29 17:51:23 masquerade michel_v: except +b, but we're talking about the oppositebr / Jun 29 17:51:26 michel_v masquerade: it sounds like a nice idea, but in practice people will start asking these people directlybr / Jun 29 17:51:27 photomatt if people are confused by there being no ops or voices, they probably aren't familiar with freenodebr / Jun 29 17:51:33 michel_v if only because they're on top of the user listbr / Jun 29 17:51:42 photomatt that's an issue toobr / Jun 29 17:51:43 Morydd I think in any case, the problem becomes one of deciding what the requirements are for getting +v too.br / Jun 29 17:51:47 mdawaffe there's plenty of people who put in time on the forums and they don't have any special recognitionbr / Jun 29 17:52:05 michel_v photomatt: I think it's freenode that's not familiar with how people expect IRC channels to workbr / Jun 29 17:52:19 h0bbel michel_v: thats not the case in #gallery though, but we did make a #gallery-support channel due to the noise.br / Jun 29 17:52:22 mdawaffe how is #wordpress different (or how should it be)br / Jun 29 17:52:42 ryanduff podz is recognized as support maven because, well, he does an awesome job in the forumsbr / Jun 29 17:52:50 photomatt the position has *always* been if you want support go to the forumsbr / Jun 29 17:52:55 mdawaffe Kaf, moshu, macmanx, many othersbr / Jun 29 17:53:00 photomatt #wordpress is a chat channel, which you may get help on sometimesbr / Jun 29 17:53:06 photomatt but we've never suggested people go there for thatbr / Jun 29 17:53:07 * h0bbel will not argue this anymore as it's not his place to do so, he's just pointing out how Gallery does it.br / Jun 29 17:53:11 ryanduff well than pull it out of the codex about instant support and sending people to ircbr / Jun 29 17:53:21 ryanduff because there are tons of support requests in here every daybr / Jun 29 17:53:31 photomatt okay, then let's take the support sentence out of the codexbr / Jun 29 17:53:40 ryanduff send them to the forums and not irc, thats the position isn't it?br / Jun 29 17:53:52 mdawaffe ryanduff: in the forums it's documentedbr / Jun 29 17:53:59 masquerade Shall we redirect every post request to the forums and just ignore them on IRC while we're at it?br / Jun 29 17:54:09 photomatt if someone gets help on IRC, that's great, but they shouldn't *expect* itbr / Jun 29 17:54:23 ryanduff so what is the purpose of ircbr / Jun 29 17:54:23 photomatt because it just isn't the right mediumbr / Jun 29 17:54:27 Firas this conversation isn't on a very helpful trackbr / Jun 29 17:54:39 ryanduff right now it's looking like general conversation about whateverbr / Jun 29 17:54:43 photomatt it's a topical channel about wordpressbr / Jun 29 17:54:45 ryanduff since it's not supportbr / Jun 29 17:54:50 ryanduff and we have wp-docsbr / Jun 29 17:55:07 relle there was an attempt to have a support only chat and it didn't go.br / Jun 29 17:55:13 ryanduff a topical chanel thats never usually on topic except when somebody is looking for helpbr / Jun 29 17:55:15 relle Lack of publicity and only a couple of helpers.br / Jun 29 17:55:25 relle #wordpress became support+discussion.br / Jun 29 17:55:37 relle +social.br / Jun 29 17:55:38 ryanduff and it can stay that waybr / Jun 29 17:55:49 relle The issue is titles.br / Jun 29 17:55:59 relle Or putting responsible people on a list.br / Jun 29 17:56:01 relle Decision?br / Jun 29 17:56:08 ryanduff whatverbr / Jun 29 17:56:28 mdawaffe perhaps after someone has received help on #wordpress, they should be highly encouraged to document it on the forums or in codexbr / Jun 29 17:56:42 mdawaffe that would attempt to address that issuebr / Jun 29 17:56:48 * cyphase (~cyphase@adsl-69-224-19-199.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #WordPress-Meetupbr / Jun 29 17:57:41 relle What is the decision about titles and/or documenting responsible folks on the IRC?br / Jun 29 17:57:44 mdawaffe I can only speak for myself, but when I've gone into #wordpress, I take advice from anyone that gives itbr / Jun 29 17:58:15 mdawaffe I (personally) would not get much use out of a hierarchical IRC structurebr / Jun 29 17:58:42 relle How many do you think would go to, say, the Codex to look at a list of who is who before or during an IRC visit?br / Jun 29 17:58:59 ryanduff none, thats why it dosn't belong in codexbr / Jun 29 17:59:00 mdawaffe and I've not seen newbies mistrust regulars before, but I bow to masquerade and ryanduff's greater experience on that onebr / Jun 29 17:59:21 Morydd I think the issue is that IRC needs to either be more formal in it's support offerings, or be more obvious in the fact that it is _not_ a support channelbr / Jun 29 17:59:46 ryanduff thank youbr / Jun 29 18:00:13 relle ryanduff, do you want to discuss this in some way on the IRC to get a feeling overall from consistent users and then report to us next week on their feelings and stance on the subject?br / Jun 29 18:00:33 ryanduff surebr / Jun 29 18:00:38 Morydd both have issues in that formalizing will kill a lot of the fun, non-support that happens; however, declaring it not a support source will feel like a slight to those who do offer support there.br / Jun 29 18:00:46 ryanduff can we push it towards the beginning next weeek so i dont' have to wait 2 hoursbr / Jun 29 18:00:49 mdawaffe I think that it is _not_ a support channel, but that doesn't mean people won't go there for support. But I don't think any extra degree of formality is needed. Again, the forums have no such hierarchy (except for moderators - but that's something very different)br / Jun 29 18:01:06 relle You can stick it wherever.....on the list ;-)br / Jun 29 18:01:15 relle Actually as a past topic, it would go to the top of the list.br / Jun 29 18:01:20 relle And everyone has to wait their turn.br / Jun 29 18:01:26 relle No matter where they are on the list.br / Jun 29 18:01:30 Morydd mdawaffe: the forums have a more formal structure based purely on the format.br / Jun 29 18:01:31 ryanduff mdawaffe: well if its not a support channel, remove all instances of it from the codex and stop sending people herebr / Jun 29 18:01:43 ryanduff people come here for support because the codex says tobr / Jun 29 18:01:52 relle I think it needs to be a decision by all who participate.br / Jun 29 18:02:00 mdawaffe Morydd: yes - that was essentially my pointbr / Jun 29 18:02:17 relle Firas, anything else?br / Jun 29 18:02:18 ryanduff delete this page - http://codex.wordpress.org/WordPress_IRC_Live_Helpbr / Jun 29 18:02:21 mdawaffe ryanduff: I was unaware the codex called #wordpress a support channelbr / Jun 29 18:02:34 ryanduff mdawaffe: live help = supportbr / Jun 29 18:02:35 Firas relle: nobr / Jun 29 18:02:36 relle It's been listed as a support channel for a very long time.br / Jun 29 18:02:40 photomatt I was unaware of that toobr / Jun 29 18:02:42 relle photomatt: anything more?br / Jun 29 18:02:52 relle Before I came around.br / Jun 29 18:02:53 photomatt that page should be removedbr / Jun 29 18:02:55 relle That's how I found it.br / Jun 29 18:03:04 ryanduff and i quote It's like the forums - just quicker. Yes, that is possible!br / Jun 29 18:03:06 relle I think the decision should be with the IRC volunteers.br / Jun 29 18:03:06 Morydd the IRC page will need editing as well.br / Jun 29 18:03:09 mdawaffe ryanduff: I would tend to agree. that is not incosistent with my statement. I was unaware that page existed, if ou'd preferbr / Jun 29 18:03:14 Morydd there is also a live chat help on the IRC network irc.freenode.net, where you can seek WordPress related helpbr / Jun 29 18:03:35 relle Many people like helping people there.br / Jun 29 18:03:39 relle So they should all decide.br / Jun 29 18:04:15 ryanduff so what is it? remove all pages from codex and stop telling people #wordpress is a support channel?br / Jun 29 18:04:39 photomatt well that page not only promotes it as a support channel, but one that should be used *over* the forumsbr / Jun 29 18:04:40 relle I think you need to go to the IRC folks and ask them to help make a decision about it.br / Jun 29 18:04:46 ryanduff lets leave everything in the forums and let podz deal with it all (no offense to podz) but that seems to be the consensusbr / Jun 29 18:04:52 photomatt We had an IRC page before, but it was just general connection info and suchbr / Jun 29 18:05:02 photomatt saying it was wordpress chat not a place for support or live helpbr / Jun 29 18:05:04 relle And when we have information about what people want to do, we make a decision.br / Jun 29 18:05:08 Morydd http://codex.wordpress.org/IRCbr / Jun 29 18:05:18 photomatt yes, that pagebr / Jun 29 18:05:20 relle That page was left over from when Podz started a wordpress support chat.br / Jun 29 18:05:23 Morydd which also lists the channel as a support source.br / Jun 29 18:05:36 relle It was cleaned up to reflect it's loss and point to the #wordpress channel.br / Jun 29 18:05:42 relle It is NOT meant to replace the forums.br / Jun 29 18:05:46 photomatt okay, so the first paragraph of IRC needs to be edited back to the originalbr / Jun 29 18:05:54 photomatt and the live help page should probably be axedbr / Jun 29 18:05:58 photomatt or archived somewherebr / Jun 29 18:06:01 relle It is meant to be a guide to help people who seek help on the chat.br / Jun 29 18:06:06 photomatt I think the content is good, it's just saying something we don't want to saybr / Jun 29 18:06:24 Podz I see #wordpress as a fast response to a coding issue that cannot be answered in the forums. or security posts which need evaluating.br / Jun 29 18:06:25 relle Then we can clean up the content.br / Jun 29 18:06:31 mdawaffe I guess my stance is that I have no personal problem with questions being answered on IRC, but that I think the forums is the primary source of support for WP and the rest of WP (codex etc) should reflect thatbr / Jun 29 18:06:35 Podz and a nice chatty place too :)br / Jun 29 18:06:37 relle But making such a decision should involve the chat group.br / Jun 29 18:06:44 relle Not us making the decisions for them.br / Jun 29 18:07:05 photomatt at its core #wordpress is not the friendliest or most inviting placebr / Jun 29 18:07:06 Morydd yes... because I don't (generally) use the forums.br / Jun 29 18:07:07 mdawaffe (heck - I've both given and received help on #wordpress before - more like the sort of help Podz refers to)br / Jun 29 18:07:11 relle They are invaluable as a group and they need our respect.br / Jun 29 18:07:18 photomatt there are things in the channel we would *never* allow on wordpress.orgbr / Jun 29 18:07:27 Podz so will #wordpress be defined clearly ?br / Jun 29 18:07:37 photomatt we discouraged it before because we had females go in the channel who were essentially harassed and insultedbr / Jun 29 18:07:59 photomatt and offended by male locker room type contentbr / Jun 29 18:08:00 Firas huhbr / Jun 29 18:08:01 Podz photomatt:: true - but it's chat, informal though I agree ^^br / Jun 29 18:08:24 photomatt very prominent females, it almost turned into a PR disaster for WPbr / Jun 29 18:08:30 photomatt I'll leave it at thatbr / Jun 29 18:08:37 Firas last year?br / Jun 29 18:08:38 relle Okay, but it isn't that way now.br / Jun 29 18:08:40 Morydd it's an informal source of help, but does that automatically make it an inferior form of help.br / Jun 29 18:08:48 relle Sure it can be cleaned up and the private chats asked to take it outside.br / Jun 29 18:08:54 relle But it serves an invaluable service.br / Jun 29 18:09:16 relle I would hate to see us making decisions for them without their input.br / Jun 29 18:09:18 Morydd and if we're having those kinds of problems, we need people to use the ops and stop it.br / Jun 29 18:09:44 relle Agreed.br / Jun 29 18:09:45 photomatt Morydd: if you ban people or kick people out then it becomes a game to them to get back inbr / Jun 29 18:09:55 relle No, but you can ask nicely.br / Jun 29 18:09:59 photomatt it's *much* better to apply community pressurebr / Jun 29 18:10:02 photomatt relle: exactlybr / Jun 29 18:10:15 relle And the Live Help IRC page was to help regulate and remind people of the purpose(s).br / Jun 29 18:10:17 photomatt and the beauty is anyone can do that, it doesn't need to be an opbr / Jun 29 18:10:19 relle That's why it was cleaned up.br / Jun 29 18:10:35 photomatt if there is a genuinely abusive user, then contact one of the freenode admins and they can handle itbr / Jun 29 18:10:42 Morydd No, community pressure is good for dealing with minor problems. When people are actively doing major harm to the commuinty it needs to be dealt with at once.br / Jun 29 18:10:55 Firas done that couple times (told freenode to k-line people)br / Jun 29 18:10:55 photomatt but I think more natural social methods are better for regulating the tone of the chatbr / Jun 29 18:10:56 Firas it worksbr / Jun 29 18:11:30 Firas on flooders the likebr / Jun 29 18:12:02 Morydd but the direction this conversation seems to be leading is towards removing all motivation to maintain that respect for the channel. If we're not there for support, why are we there at all?br / Jun 29 18:12:05 relle Then we will work on the IRC Help document to set a tone.br / Jun 29 18:12:30 ryanduff thats what i asked 5 min agobr / Jun 29 18:13:11 ryanduff why are we here?br / Jun 29 18:13:20 Podz I thunk #wordpress hits a good balance. Questions get answered, PM's are done, chatter goes on which rarely strays too far and I've certainly seen nothing that someone present took offence too.br / Jun 29 18:13:52 photomatt it's been over two hours, let's call the meetup officially over, though this discussion can continuebr / Jun 29 18:14:00 photomatt it might be valuable to move it to #wordpress, actuallybr / Jun 29 18:14:12 relle thank you.br / Jun 29 18:14:21 photomatt /meetupbr /


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