IRC Meetups/2006/May/May31RawLog

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[17:04] * Joins: ringmaster br /[17:04] skeltoac hey ringo br /[17:04] photomatt now the band is complete br /[17:04] photomatt let's kick it off br /[17:04] photomatt meetup br /[17:05] photomatt let's get started with the branch so nice we had to release it thrice br /[17:05] photomatt 2.0.3 br /[17:05] photomatt br /[17:05] photomatt is the official beta br /[17:05] mumbles damm update already ? br /[17:06] photomatt the department of wordland security has certified this release br /[17:06] * skeltoac snickers br /[17:06] PotterSys photomatt: is taking a lunch break. br /[17:06] skeltoac old dns records still hiding somewhere br /[17:06] photomatt 2.0.3 + duct tape and saran wrap and you're safe from anything br /[17:06] photomatt PotterSys: you have bad DNS br /[17:07] photomatt has anyone tried 2.0.3 out? br /[17:07] rboren I have. br /[17:08] rboren But that's a given. br /[17:08] rboren Anyone else? br /[17:08] photomatt I'm running the latest 2.1 bits on my blog br /[17:09] rboren Me too. I've got 2.0.3 test blogs going though. br /[17:09] skeltoac I'm also a trunkmonkey. br /[17:09] ringmaster That's... disturbing. br /[17:09] skeltoac (heh) br /[17:09] photomatt a lot of the patches were similar for 2.1 and 2.0.3 br /[17:10] rboren Are we comfortable with nonces? That's in 2.0.3. br /[17:10] rboren They're working well for me. br /[17:10] photomatt I can't break anything by clicking around br /[17:11] mumbles ill get a test blog up soon br /[17:11] ringmaster Will comment approval emails be two-click in 2.0.3 like in 2.1? br /[17:11] rboren Two click including the click in the emails? br /[17:11] rboren Yes. br /[17:12] ringmaster Blast this improved security! br /[17:12] rboren Curses. br /[17:12] rboren We got dinged for that a lot though. br /[17:12] Podz PotterSys - PM with the solution br /[17:12] photomatt yeah I think the two-click email thing sucks br /[17:13] * ringmaster wants a tray app that approves WP comments. br /[17:13] rboren The CSRF police loved to point that one out. br /[17:13] photomatt let's not have that in 2.1 br /[17:13] photomatt maybe we can note in the code that it's an intended tradeoff br /[17:13] photomatt much like our not collecting fingerprints or social security numbers br /[17:14] skeltoac woe is us. br /[17:14] * ringmaster feels a plugin coming on. br /[17:14] skeltoac What are some happy things in 2.0.3? br /[17:14] skeltoac More hooks? br /[17:15] rboren More API. br /[17:15] rboren I think there's an extra hook or two. br /[17:15] gsnedders sending an Etag doesn't mean it will never send 304 br /[17:16] photomatt okay br /[17:16] photomatt well now that all the coding is done, and rboren is no longer down with an injury, a release will probably be coming pretty soon br /[17:17] photomatt for people who like to know about that ahead of time br /[17:17] rboren Everybody test. br /[17:18] photomatt or the blog terrists will get you br /[17:18] ringmaster Are we going to get a 2.1 alpha bump with this 2.0.3 beta or release? br /[17:18] * gsnedders screams for my mummy! br /[17:19] photomatt ringmaster: perfect transition point! br /[17:19] photomatt let's talk about 2.1, bay-bee, let's talk about you and me br /[17:19] photomatt or just 2.1 br /[17:19] * skeltoac shrugs br /[17:19] photomatt I don't know that there is really a whole bunch holding up 2.1 at this point br /[17:20] photomatt faster pages page and users page would definitely be Nice to Have br /[17:20] ringmaster No shuttle for 2.1? No caps remix? br /[17:20] * Joins: io_error br /[17:20] * Joins: stevecooley br /[17:20] rboren Plugin updater would be nice. br /[17:21] photomatt it generally takes a month and a half after we stop adding features for a release to come out br /[17:21] rboren Since we're going to break so many of them. br /[17:21] ringmaster Heh. br /[17:26] photomatt ahem! br /[17:26] * miklb always wondered what these meetups were really about br /[17:26] photomatt well first question br /[17:26] photomatt what's new in 2.1? br /[17:26] rboren Page up front. br /[17:26] photomatt numerous bug fixes br /[17:26] photomatt page up front br /[17:26] gsnedders miklb: sex, drugs and jazz. br /[17:26] photomatt spell check br /[17:26] photomatt performance enhancements br /[17:26] rboren More AJAX br /[17:26] photomatt page status br /[17:26] photomatt yes, more ajax, fewer reloads br /[17:27] stevecooley I gotta have more AJAX! br /[17:27] gsnedders photomatt: does the spell check rely on TinyMCE? br /[17:27] io_error Nice. br /[17:27] photomatt bookmarks cleanup br /[17:27] photomatt gsnedders: yes br /[17:27] photomatt the interface is cleaner and more consistent br /[17:27] photomatt more importers br /[17:27] photomatt XML import/export br /[17:27] rboren Blog privacy br /[17:28] photomatt more hooks br /[17:28] io_error More documentation? br /[17:28] skeltoac I love me some hooks. br /[17:28] miklb rboren: blog privacy? br /[17:28] gsnedders and there aren't any browsers that support AppleSpell (in all NStextfields) and TinyMCE, so that question is a non-issue. br /[17:29] rboren You can choose not to ping and to tell robots to go away. br /[17:29] gsnedders next question: does it work in browsers with JavaScript disabled, or without AJAX support? br /[17:29] io_error rboren: people actually wanted that? br /[17:29] rboren Yes, a lot. br /[17:29] VxJasonxV io_error, yes br /[17:29] VxJasonxV Journals are private things (pah) br /[17:29] VxJasonxV they should be using a hand written book, but whatever :P br /[17:29] rboren Very popular feature on br /[17:30] io_error Never put private stuff on the Internet. It will find its way out. br /[17:30] photomatt I think the pinging is a fairly big deal br /[17:30] photomatt it gives us an install-option for people to be public with their blog or not br /[17:30] gsnedders is it per-post? br /[17:30] rboren No. br /[17:30] io_error gsnedders: update services br /[17:30] photomatt if/when we start to look at plugin stats through xml-rpc, it could be on the same trigger br /[17:30] ringmaster Add pseudo-cron to that list of new features. br /[17:30] gsnedders eg. choose a single post not to ping the servers br /[17:31] photomatt ringmaster: yep, forgot about that br /[17:31] gsnedders io_error: ? br /[17:31] io_error gsnedders: technorati, pingomatic, etc. br /[17:31] gsnedders io_error: yeah... br /[17:31] skeltoac gsnedders: no, there are no per-post don't-do-generic-ping options br /[17:33] photomatt ringmaster: do you think all that is enough to entice people to upgrade br /[17:33] ringmaster Nope. br /[17:33] photomatt also, is there any reason we shouldn't be offering those features to new installs? br /[17:34] gsnedders back to my earlier question, any plans for a bug hunt? br /[17:34] photomatt ringmaster: what would? br /[17:34] rboren Spell check alone is enough. br /[17:34] ringmaster We're talking about a big point release here. Something flashy and in-your-face would be nice on top of all of these under the hood features. br /[17:34] miklb rboren: I would disagree on that br /[17:34] photomatt don't underestimate the spell-check br /[17:34] * gsnedders wonders why most UIs don't have spelling built in, using a dictionary shared by all apps. br /[17:34] skeltoac spell-check can make or break nations. br /[17:35] rboren We learned from that spell check is a deal breaker. br /[17:35] photomatt ringmaster: what would be an example of flashy and in your face? br /[17:35] chocotofferts pligg features would be nice br /[17:35] io_error NO SPAM. br /[17:35] ringmaster Shuttle. br /[17:35] miklb from my experience in the forum, the page draft, and page sticky will be hailed br /[17:35] skeltoac yes br /[17:35] photomatt shuttle isn't terribly flashy br /[17:35] io_error What the hell is shuttle? br /[17:35] ringmaster It's enough to get people's attention. br /[17:36] skeltoac Shuttle is a bunch of drawings. br /[17:36] photomatt br /[17:36] ringmaster It's something they can *see* versus something they'd have to be a coder to understand the value of. br /[17:36] rboren Getting some elements of shuttle might be nice. br /[17:36] io_error Oh, that. br /[17:36] ringmaster Spell-check is nice, but I can't get too excited over something my word process has had since the dawn of time. It's like getting excited over a vaccuum cleaner. br /[17:37] skeltoac That's in 2.2. br /[17:37] ringmaster 2.2 - The Hoover br /[17:37] io_error I want a kitchen sink. br /[17:37] gsnedders and a dog. br /[17:38] skeltoac I want a PHP script that rhymes and has a good plot. br /[17:38] ringmaster No doubt, these are all great features that everyone will learn to love. Slowly. Eventually. Something that improves the UI will get people excited to try it out. br /[17:38] photomatt I don't know that radical interface changes could, or should, happen every single release br /[17:38] miklb question, 2.1 categories for bookmarks and posts are one in the same? br /[17:38] photomatt miklb: yes br /[17:38] gsnedders photomatt: no, they shouldn't. br /[17:38] gsnedders photomatt: it's best to stick to something people know br /[17:39] io_error photomatt: no, but people are likely to miss subtle changes. br /[17:39] photomatt I also think it's a bit of a red herring br /[17:39] photomatt some points: br /[17:39] photomatt * wp is working for a huge number of people, and adoption has never been a problem we've had br /[17:39] io_error well, not a BIG problem br /[17:40] photomatt * interface changes should address areas where we know there are usability problems br /[17:40] photomatt shuttle spent months arguing about whether to have tabs on the top-level menu br /[17:40] io_error and it's still pretty ugly. br /[17:40] photomatt but spent 0 time on the upload manager br /[17:40] * io_error plays devil's advocate br /[17:40] photomatt one of these has caused hundreds of support requests br /[17:41] photomatt so I think if we do change the more aesthetic parts of the interface, we should give equal or more attention to the places where WP is functionally broken or really non-intuitive br /[17:41] photomatt examine more underlying assumptions br /[17:41] ringmaster And I don't have a problem with that. Let's do that and make that the flashy feature. And improve the look of the UI in the process. br /[17:41] io_error And I want JavaScript pop-down menus. I have to click too much to get to what I want. :) br /[17:42] ringmaster Darn right. br /[17:42] photomatt haha br /[17:42] photomatt okay, so all that would be nice br /[17:42] skeltoac The mindreading algorithms are almost ready so you won't ever have to touch the mouse OR the keyboard. br /[17:42] photomatt which brings us to two questions, who does it and when does it get done? br /[17:42] photomatt I think in June we should focus on clearing out the 2.1 bug queue br /[17:43] photomatt and get that release out br /[17:43] io_error If I code something, it's going to be my #1 most desired feature :) br /[17:43] photomatt we can't build a flashy feature house on a shaky foundation br /[17:43] gsnedders as I've said twice before already, are we gonna have a bug hunt again? br /[17:43] photomatt gsnedders: yes br /[17:43] io_error Sure you can; it'll just fall apart :) br /[17:43] io_error Or creak along like it has been. br /[17:44] * Joins: Libertus br /[17:44] gsnedders photomatt: when? br /[17:44] photomatt gsnedders: chill! br /[17:44] * gsnedders is relaxed... br /[17:44] * gsnedders just uses one word replies when I'm bored/busy br /[17:45] photomatt if you look at br /[17:45] photomatt you'll see 2.1 includes almost everything we wanted to get in 2.0 br /[17:45] io_error Why was 1.6 called 2.0 in the first place? br /[17:45] Libertus Sorry, I missed the start. What's the main feature that's coming in 2.1? br /[17:45] io_error Libertus: spell check br /[17:45] ringmaster Well, I am only addressing what I think will convince more people to upgrade. All of the featueres 2.1 has are swell, I just don't know that joe blogger gives a damn. br /[17:45] Libertus w00t! br /[17:46] photomatt ringmaster: you also said as much, and blogged as much, about 2.0 br /[17:46] photomatt why do you think 2.0 has been so widely adopted? br /[17:46] io_error ringmaster: joe blogger will give a damn when all the plugins start becoming 2.1-only br /[17:46] Libertus photomatt: It works br /[17:46] ringmaster Just like they have for 2.0. br /[17:47] photomatt okay, then we have nothing to worry about br /[17:47] ringmaster Has nothing to do with 2.0 proper, just the adoption of new hooks by plugin devs. Which is why I recommended the upgrade way back when. br /[17:47] io_error We have too many hooks already. br /[17:47] Libertus Hooks are good. Need more hooks. br /[17:48] * io_error points to duplicate hooks that do the same thing in different ways br /[17:48] skeltoac io_error is urged to upload diffs to trac br /[17:48] Libertus Theme hooking is a bit patchy - theme authors could do with some official guidance to make themes plugin-friendly br /[17:48] gsnedders hooks allow things to be done without modding the code. good. multiple hooks doing the same thing. bad. br /[17:48] io_error skeltoac: heh, I don't want to make that sort of decision. People's code will break. br /[17:48] photomatt skeltoac: you can't respond to everyone with a code or shut up response ;) br /[17:48] skeltoac aw! br /[17:49] io_error Something to put on the table for 3.0, perhaps, to eliminate and consolidate duplicate hooks and other duplicate code br /[17:49] Libertus Which hooks are duplicates? br /[17:49] skeltoac Speaking of hooks, anybody want to talk about adding context to some filters? br /[17:49] io_error Libertus: Compare get_settings() to get_bloginfo(), for instance. br /[17:49] photomatt skeltoac: you can get context by looking at _SERVER br /[17:49] * io_error constantly gets them mixed up br /[17:50] skeltoac You still don't know where on the page or for what link that option was requested. br /[17:50] skeltoac You only know which page you're on. br /[17:51] photomatt if anything we should be making our underlying filter, option, etc systems simpler, not more complex br /[17:51] io_error Amen! br /[17:51] Libertus io_error: get_bloginfo() is a wrapper for get_settings() - it doesn't have its own hooks br /[17:51] io_error Libertus: yes, and with completely different parameters. What's the point? br /[17:51] Libertus Semantics br /[17:52] io_error Libertus: It didn't work. br /[17:52] Libertus One if for themes (get_bloginfo()) the other for developers and internals (get_settings()) br /[17:52] io_error Libertus: Which is which? br /[17:52] io_error Libertus: And more importantly, WHY? br /[17:52] io_error Libertus: One can easily serve both purposes. br /[17:52] Libertus bloginfo is an abstraction of settings - to limit the interface to only those things a theme should be requesting br /[17:53] io_error Libertus: how do you know what my theme needs to request? :) br /[17:53] photomatt anyway, over the next month let's focus on stabilizing 2.1 br /[17:53] Libertus io_error: I don't br /[17:53] photomatt which means clearing out - br /[17:53] ringmaster Well, I'm done bringing the party down. If the PTB don't agree, at least my conscience is clear for having offered my opinion. Is this keg on? br /[17:53] Libertus Your theme can call get_settings, if you know what you're doing :) br /[17:53] photomatt even if we decide to hold off the release for more flashy features br /[17:53] photomatt we need to fix bugs before coding new stuff br /[17:53] photomatt always br /[17:53] io_error Libertus: Almost every theme - including the default one - calls get_settings(). br /[17:53] Libertus Oh well, you can lead a dev to APIs but you can't make them call br /[17:54] io_error yes, but fixing bugs isn't sexy and doesn't get us the hot Linux women! br /[17:54] Libertus Perhaps a WordPress Janitors team? br /[17:54] photomatt I've also created a 2.2 milestone br /[17:54] photomatt for pushing things off to the next release br /[17:54] io_error Libertus: I see no good reason why there should be two completely different APIs that do exactly the same thing. br /[17:54] photomatt if something is too broad br /[17:54] photomatt like supporting dates prior to 1901 br /[17:54] miklb photomatt: so as a joe blogger how can one help with 2.1? br /[17:54] Libertus io_error: They don't do exactly the same thing. br /[17:55] photomatt miklb: well if you're comfortable with regular backups br /[17:55] photomatt run it br /[17:55] io_error Libertus: No, one is a subset of the other. br /[17:55] photomatt and verify or invalidate tickets on the above link br /[17:55] io_error More or less. br /[17:55] miklb I am on a test blog, and so far so good br /[17:55] photomatt there are a lot of tickets in trac that might be already fixed, or might not quite apply br /[17:55] miklb OK. Mainly I want to be more familiar with features so when it's official, and beta even, I can better answer in the forums br /[17:56] Libertus io_error: try get_settings('rss2_url') br /[17:56] mumbles whats the latest ofical release? br /[17:56] mumbles 2.0.2 ? br /[17:56] photomatt yes, and 2.0.3 is coming out shortly br /[17:57] miklb so when 2.0.3 is released, it will be termed security fix? br /[17:57] mumbles ok - just wanted to know if i had missed updating my sandbox site br /[17:57] Libertus I've noticed some activity on 2.0.3... like WP_SECRET br /[17:58] Libertus Looks good to me, so unless 2.1 is imminent, I'll go forward with that br /[17:58] photomatt miklb: yes br /[17:59] Libertus Any major database schema changes planned for 2.1? br /[17:59] Libertus I noticed the itegration of the link and post categories... br /[17:59] photomatt Libertus: yes, please check out the SVN br /[18:00] photomatt any other topics anyone would like to propose? br /[18:00] miklb speaking of that, were would one start to look at how that's going to effect template tags? br /[18:00] miklb er, where br /[18:01] Libertus photomatt: Isn't there a summary somewhere? br /[18:01] photomatt Libertus: sumarry of what? br /[18:01] photomatt *summary br /[18:01] Libertus The intended changes to 2.1... it's one thing to start at diffs, another thing entirely to know what the intent of the diffs is br /[18:02] photomatt you can look at the open and closed tickets on the 2.1 milestone on trac br /[18:02] Libertus I can't speak for others, but some kind of management or executive summary of what's coming up would be really useful br /[18:02] photomatt read the transcript from earlier br /[18:02] io_error Libertus: what about it? br /[18:02] photomatt and see rboren's blog for a summary of changes thus far br /[18:02] Libertus br /[18:03] photomatt no br /[18:03] photomatt br /[18:03] Libertus Ta br /[18:03] photomatt rboren: hey, rboren,nu isn't a porn site anymore br /[18:04] gsnedders :D br /[18:04] Libertus photomatt: Can you help me with a post ID, or title or something? br /[18:04] io_error hehehehe br /[18:04] photomatt Libertus: not during the meetup br /[18:04] Libertus Oh thanks br /[18:04] * Parts: Libertus (Goodnight!�) br /[18:04] photomatt ? br /[18:04] photomatt okay br /[18:04] chocotofferts *registering io_error* br /[18:04] photomatt any other topics? br /[18:06] * io_error doesn't see any other topics br /[18:06] photomatt alrighty br /[18:06] photomatt /meetup br /[18:06] photomatt thanks everyone for coming out and spicing it up

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